Discussion:
CSA claim due to PWC claiming income support
(too old to reply)
Fred
2004-01-28 10:03:44 UTC
Permalink
I am in the position where my ex with two of our children has claimed Income
Support. I am became aware of this because of a phone call from the DWP
(CSA) where apparently there are two sections, one which deals with benefit
cases and the other which deals with private cases. My contact was from the
benefit case section.

Now my ex-wife and our children is living with her partner, but she also has
a house. She and our children have slept there either 2 or 3 times after
she purchased 2 years ago. The address given to the schools etc is the
partner's address. Indeed the contact number she gave the CSA was her
partner's telephone number. The telephone number for her house being
disconnected.

After this, when I contacted her she initially denied claiming Income
Support.

She is in the process of selling this house.

Does this effect the CSA claim at all?

Does the fact that she has a house (she doesn't live in) worth approx
£150,000 have any effect on a claim I am making since one of our children
lives with me? What evidence do I have to supply to convince them she
doesn't live there?
x x
2004-01-28 10:14:36 UTC
Permalink
So long as she qualifies for income support, then CSa are stuck with it.

The only way her circumstances will affect how much you have to pay, at all,
is if she has income in her own right.

While a £150K house is a nice asset, it doesn't necessarily mean enough
income to take her off income support even if she rents it out.
Now if she sells it, thats a different matter. But her income then (under
CS1 only, not CS2) is any interest received on the capital. So it could take
her off income support, but unlikely to give her assessable income.

The claim you make still depends on her income in her own right.
And if she is on income support, then the most you'll get (under CS2) is £5
a week. Under CS1 its zero.

Martin <><
Post by Fred
I am in the position where my ex with two of our children has claimed Income
Support. I am became aware of this because of a phone call from the DWP
(CSA) where apparently there are two sections, one which deals with benefit
cases and the other which deals with private cases. My contact was from the
benefit case section.
Now my ex-wife and our children is living with her partner, but she also has
a house. She and our children have slept there either 2 or 3 times after
she purchased 2 years ago. The address given to the schools etc is the
partner's address. Indeed the contact number she gave the CSA was her
partner's telephone number. The telephone number for her house being
disconnected.
After this, when I contacted her she initially denied claiming Income
Support.
She is in the process of selling this house.
Does this effect the CSA claim at all?
Does the fact that she has a house (she doesn't live in) worth approx
£150,000 have any effect on a claim I am making since one of our children
lives with me? What evidence do I have to supply to convince them she
doesn't live there?
Fred
2004-01-28 10:19:38 UTC
Permalink
With respect she is, in effect, making a fraudulent claim. She cannot
legitimately claim IS if she has an asset like a house she doesn't live in.
The CSA lady I was speaking to suggested I ring the "cheat line". Something
I haven't done and don't intend to unless it is to my advantage!
Post by x x
So long as she qualifies for income support, then CSa are stuck with it.
The only way her circumstances will affect how much you have to pay, at all,
is if she has income in her own right.
While a £150K house is a nice asset, it doesn't necessarily mean enough
income to take her off income support even if she rents it out.
Now if she sells it, thats a different matter. But her income then (under
CS1 only, not CS2) is any interest received on the capital. So it could take
her off income support, but unlikely to give her assessable income.
The claim you make still depends on her income in her own right.
And if she is on income support, then the most you'll get (under CS2) is £5
a week. Under CS1 its zero.
Martin <><
Post by Fred
I am in the position where my ex with two of our children has claimed
Income
Post by Fred
Support. I am became aware of this because of a phone call from the DWP
(CSA) where apparently there are two sections, one which deals with
benefit
Post by Fred
cases and the other which deals with private cases. My contact was from
the
Post by Fred
benefit case section.
Now my ex-wife and our children is living with her partner, but she also
has
Post by Fred
a house. She and our children have slept there either 2 or 3 times after
she purchased 2 years ago. The address given to the schools etc is the
partner's address. Indeed the contact number she gave the CSA was her
partner's telephone number. The telephone number for her house being
disconnected.
After this, when I contacted her she initially denied claiming Income
Support.
She is in the process of selling this house.
Does this effect the CSA claim at all?
Does the fact that she has a house (she doesn't live in) worth approx
£150,000 have any effect on a claim I am making since one of our children
lives with me? What evidence do I have to supply to convince them she
doesn't live there?
x x
2004-01-28 10:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Thats a matter for the benefits agency. I wasn't aware they treated assets
that way - money yes, but not assets.


Ok, so if you shop her to the cheat line and her benefit is withdrawn. Whats
her income in her own right then? If nothing, still doesn't affect how much
you pay.

She'd have to have an income of a minimum of £100 a week or so, and no
housing costs, and no tax credit award, in order for her income to make any
difference. Under CS1.
If she has housing costs, her income has to be higher to make any
difference.

Martin <><
Post by Fred
With respect she is, in effect, making a fraudulent claim. She cannot
legitimately claim IS if she has an asset like a house she doesn't live in.
The CSA lady I was speaking to suggested I ring the "cheat line".
Something
Post by Fred
I haven't done and don't intend to unless it is to my advantage!
Post by x x
So long as she qualifies for income support, then CSa are stuck with it.
The only way her circumstances will affect how much you have to pay, at
all,
Post by x x
is if she has income in her own right.
While a £150K house is a nice asset, it doesn't necessarily mean enough
income to take her off income support even if she rents it out.
Now if she sells it, thats a different matter. But her income then (under
CS1 only, not CS2) is any interest received on the capital. So it could
take
Post by x x
her off income support, but unlikely to give her assessable income.
The claim you make still depends on her income in her own right.
And if she is on income support, then the most you'll get (under CS2) is
£5
Post by x x
a week. Under CS1 its zero.
Martin <><
Post by Fred
I am in the position where my ex with two of our children has claimed
Income
Post by Fred
Support. I am became aware of this because of a phone call from the DWP
(CSA) where apparently there are two sections, one which deals with
benefit
Post by Fred
cases and the other which deals with private cases. My contact was from
the
Post by Fred
benefit case section.
Now my ex-wife and our children is living with her partner, but she also
has
Post by Fred
a house. She and our children have slept there either 2 or 3 times
after
Post by x x
Post by Fred
she purchased 2 years ago. The address given to the schools etc is the
partner's address. Indeed the contact number she gave the CSA was her
partner's telephone number. The telephone number for her house being
disconnected.
After this, when I contacted her she initially denied claiming Income
Support.
She is in the process of selling this house.
Does this effect the CSA claim at all?
Does the fact that she has a house (she doesn't live in) worth approx
£150,000 have any effect on a claim I am making since one of our
children
Post by x x
Post by Fred
lives with me? What evidence do I have to supply to convince them she
doesn't live there?
Fred
2004-01-28 11:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by x x
Thats a matter for the benefits agency. I wasn't aware they treated assets
that way - money yes, but not assets.
Ok, so if you shop her to the cheat line and her benefit is withdrawn. Whats
her income in her own right then? If nothing, still doesn't affect how much
you pay.
She'd have to have an income of a minimum of £100 a week or so, and no
housing costs, and no tax credit award, in order for her income to make any
difference. Under CS1.
If she has housing costs, her income has to be higher to make any
difference.
Martin <><
If you have capital over a few £ ,000 you don't qualify for IS. The house
is fully owned by her so no costs apart from Council Tax. But cash and
capital over £65,000 are taken into account when assessing my CSA claim with
me as PWC. How is the notional income from this calculated?
x x
2004-01-28 13:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by x x
Thats a matter for the benefits agency. I wasn't aware they treated assets
that way - money yes, but not assets.
Ok, so if you shop her to the cheat line and her benefit is withdrawn.
Whats
Post by x x
her income in her own right then? If nothing, still doesn't affect how
much
Post by x x
you pay.
She'd have to have an income of a minimum of £100 a week or so, and no
housing costs, and no tax credit award, in order for her income to make
any
Post by x x
difference. Under CS1.
If she has housing costs, her income has to be higher to make any
difference.
Martin <><
If you have capital over a few £ ,000 you don't qualify for IS. The house
is fully owned by her so no costs apart from Council Tax.
But is the house Capital?
I always thought they meant capital to be money or shares.


And house to be asset.

But cash and
Post by Fred
capital over £65,000 are taken into account when assessing my CSA claim with
me as PWC. How is the notional income from this calculated?
8%.

Which in terms of assessment, works out as 1.2% to 2% of the total
cash/capital/asset affects the assessment.

Thats if you are NRP.

But you as PWC? PWC income not taken into account at all on CS2, last I
looked.

Martin <><
Fred
2004-01-28 13:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
But cash and
Post by Fred
capital over £65,000 are taken into account when assessing my CSA claim
with
Post by Fred
me as PWC. How is the notional income from this calculated?
8%.
Which in terms of assessment, works out as 1.2% to 2% of the total
cash/capital/asset affects the assessment.
Thats if you are NRP.
But you as PWC? PWC income not taken into account at all on CS2, last I
looked.
Martin <><
My ex and I are in the position of being both NRPs and PWCs for our
children. One lives with me and 2 live with her and her partner. I suppose
this situation is not typical!

We hadn't been paying each other anything and I would have left things alone
if she hadn't (fraudulently) claimed IS with consequent CSA involvement, and
also lied to me about her benefit claim. Now the boot is on the other foot
for a change.

1.2% of £90,000 is considerably more than the minimum flat rate!
x x
2004-01-28 13:47:56 UTC
Permalink
1.2% of £90K is also far less than most people would get in terms of return.

Even some current accounts these days pay 2.5 - 3% net.
If its property, the rate of return is quite a bit higher. As are shares
(good tracker index can average 10%).

We had a discussion on here many months ago about the 8% figure used by the
CSA.
Yet no-one came up with a better figure thats fairer all round, at least not
in the posts my newsreader allowed me to see.

Martin <><
Post by Fred
Post by Fred
But cash and
Post by Fred
capital over £65,000 are taken into account when assessing my CSA claim
with
Post by Fred
me as PWC. How is the notional income from this calculated?
8%.
Which in terms of assessment, works out as 1.2% to 2% of the total
cash/capital/asset affects the assessment.
Thats if you are NRP.
But you as PWC? PWC income not taken into account at all on CS2, last I
looked.
Martin <><
My ex and I are in the position of being both NRPs and PWCs for our
children. One lives with me and 2 live with her and her partner. I suppose
this situation is not typical!
We hadn't been paying each other anything and I would have left things alone
if she hadn't (fraudulently) claimed IS with consequent CSA involvement, and
also lied to me about her benefit claim. Now the boot is on the other foot
for a change.
1.2% of £90,000 is considerably more than the minimum flat rate!
Pat Winstanley
2004-01-28 11:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
With respect she is, in effect, making a fraudulent claim.
Maybe.
Post by Fred
She cannot
legitimately claim IS if she has an asset like a house she doesn't live in.
Yes she can.

So can you.

So can anyone in that position.

She may have the claim turned down because her actual and/or notional
income comes to more than the "government says she and the children need
to live on". But there is certainly no fraud involved in simply making a
claim.

If she has told them about the house and they have allowed the claim
anyway then there is no fraud.

That she lives with a partner does not preclude her from a valid IS
claim either, though any such claim would have to be based on the whole
household income and assets (including those of the partner), not just
hers.

But either way, you can claim CSA from her for the child with you, and
she can claim CSA from you for the children with her.

If, in her IS claim, she has lied, THEN the claim would be fraudulent.
But since you can't know what she put in her claim (unless you saw the
form she filled in) you don't know whether the information given was
true or not.

Of course, if you are reasonably sure she has made a fraudulent claim
then you SHOULD inform the DWP of this (whether or not it is to your
advantage). They will investigate.

Meanwhile a claim for IS, even if turned down, can also be an automatic
claim for CSA.

Read through this (including the notes):

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/advisers/claimforms/a1_print.pdf
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