Discussion:
Mirror article - dads to be tagged
(too old to reply)
nacsa chair
2005-11-07 09:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am

EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in public
Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be treated
as "quasi-criminals".

Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.

They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers and
address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.

The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.

A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.

"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to avoid
maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.


Advertisement

"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."


The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.


But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He said
last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the system
is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges and will
not work.


"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when it
has to be thrown out and you start again."


Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.


Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are removal
of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director and
restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or electronically-monitored
curfews as alternatives to prison.


"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."


But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil servants
warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."


They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.


They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may be
necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the offender".


This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are punished
as well as the chance to appear before special courts.


Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by her
former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think it's a
brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has got to be
good news.


"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."


The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.


They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".


Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on the
spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.


But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest measures
will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform plan is set
for next year.


At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits. There
are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to give the
agency information about pay and employers.


The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.


In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a million
desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.


Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.


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tony
2005-11-07 10:00:10 UTC
Permalink
1. If people are going to be made criminals, then surely there is a
responsibility on the state to undergo due process?
2. Are the CSA going to enforce this, or is it going to be the courts?
3. What is the justifarcation to punish when seriouse criminals get a tap on
the wrist? (Politics again?)
4. How are they going to componsate for loss of liberty when they are found
out for punishing the wrong men?
5. Are there any plans to punish bad female NRP as well?
6. Who decides who the criminals are, inadiquately trained CSA staff?
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges
and will not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director
and restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or
electronically-monitored curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think
it's a brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has
got to be good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform
plan is set for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to
give the agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
nacsa chair
2005-11-07 10:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Actually radio five live managed to put 3 or 4 male PWCs on air, which was
great as it made the point that yet again its just targetting dads.

it seems that general perception is that the "fear" of tagging/removal of
passport would be sufficient to increase compliance - and yes I would agree
with that....but i just have grave concerns at the number of cases where
such measures are going to be applied to the wrong cases!

NACSA CHAIR
Post by tony
1. If people are going to be made criminals, then surely there is a
responsibility on the state to undergo due process?
2. Are the CSA going to enforce this, or is it going to be the courts?
3. What is the justifarcation to punish when seriouse criminals get a tap
on the wrist? (Politics again?)
4. How are they going to componsate for loss of liberty when they are
found out for punishing the wrong men?
5. Are there any plans to punish bad female NRP as well?
6. Who decides who the criminals are, inadiquately trained CSA staff?
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated
failures to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in
arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the
edges and will not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving
single mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director
and restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or
electronically-monitored curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the
seriousness of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think
it's a brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has
got to be good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of
the CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer
system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and
Pensions Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a
"complete shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform
plan is set for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to
give the agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that
one in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a
virgin. And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his
fiancee after being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
Martin Davies
2005-11-07 10:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
1. If people are going to be made criminals, then surely there is a
responsibility on the state to undergo due process?
2. Are the CSA going to enforce this, or is it going to be the courts?
3. What is the justifarcation to punish when seriouse criminals get a
tap on the wrist? (Politics again?)
4. How are they going to componsate for loss of liberty when they are
found out for punishing the wrong men?
5. Are there any plans to punish bad female NRP as well?
6. Who decides who the criminals are, inadiquately trained CSA staff?
<snipped>
I've been saying for years how the US child support systems have been
electronically tagging people for child support debt, and forcing them to
pay for the privilege.
Looks like the idea has finally come to us.

Not sure if due process would be the same as for criminal courts. At the
moment, both council tax and child support can get someone imprisoned
without trial by jury.
Will the courts enforcing be any different than CSA? Bearing jn mind these
are the same courts that some have problems with over access issues.

Not sure about punishing the wrong men. By this point, which would
presumably be a long way down the process, either it would be the right guy
or no-one would have come up with anything to say it was the wrong guy
(including the guy himself).
Chasing the wrong guy with a claim does happen - but is usually sorted out
while still just a claim. CSA get given (or enter on computer) wrong data,
they can get wrong results back to trace someone. ie PWC knows his name is
John Sawyer, he is 26 and his birthday is end of September. If she puts that
down on the form but can't recall actual date in September, so puts 30th -
then CSA will go on that info. If really his birthday is 29th, CSA will
never be able to trace him because they are looking for the wrong date - and
get the wrong guy.
Statutary £100 compensation payment for all that - which can cause divorce.

Presumably bad female NRPs will be dealt with the same as blokes. Just less
female NRPs overall, and less working (or part-time working).

The criminals will ultimately be decided by the courts. The naming of
someone as criminal is a pre-court matter - so would be the CSA staff.
Little change there then. :)

Martin <><
Fletcher
2005-11-07 12:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Oh and don't expect to see justice in UK civil court rooms either.

Their primary function is to make money firstly and formostly for the legal
proffession.
Post by tony
1. If people are going to be made criminals, then surely there is a
responsibility on the state to undergo due process?
2. Are the CSA going to enforce this, or is it going to be the courts?
3. What is the justifarcation to punish when seriouse criminals get a tap on
the wrist? (Politics again?)
4. How are they going to componsate for loss of liberty when they are found
out for punishing the wrong men?
5. Are there any plans to punish bad female NRP as well?
6. Who decides who the criminals are, inadiquately trained CSA staff?
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges
and will not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director
and restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or
electronically-monitored curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think
it's a brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has
got to be good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform
plan is set for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to
give the agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
tony
2005-11-07 11:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Welcome to the police state.
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges
and will not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director
and restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or
electronically-monitored curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think
it's a brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has
got to be good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform
plan is set for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to
give the agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
gluey
2005-11-07 12:13:20 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday,I received a letter from agency telling me I haven't paid
any maintenance for October and could I pay up immediately or they will
take action against me. My transcash statements show that I'm fully
paid up for October and all the previous maintenance payments I was due
to make. Due to their incompetence people like me could end up being
tagged if these mistakes aren't sorted.
nacsa chair
2005-11-07 12:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Its exactly this kind of situation that causes me the greatest of
concern....probably the letter you have received is a standard computer
generated letter which may have crossed your actual payment (but still worth
checking out!!) and as such enforcement is likely to be taken at this
stage...

But what about the cases whereby;

1. CSA fail to send actual notification of liability?
2. CSA fail to send adequate documents to allow the payments to be made (ie
giroslip)?
3. CSA fail to remove a case on CS1 when in fact the case is over on CS2 -
thus making it look as though he is not paying (it happens!)
4. CSA fail to address reviews or queries etc that are needed to allow the
NRP to make the correct payment
5. CSA lose the money paid by NRPs and do not pass it over to the PWC.
6. CSA have a case open but have never actually tried to contact the NRP.

so on record it looks as though these people are not paying - but out of the
quoted figures of 70% - how many of these are not paying because they are
truly avoiding their responsibility????

I have no objections to enforcement - when and where its needed...but having
witnessed many cases of unwarranted enforcement, added powers just gives me
concern.

NACSA CHAIR
Post by gluey
On Saturday,I received a letter from agency telling me I haven't paid
any maintenance for October and could I pay up immediately or they will
take action against me. My transcash statements show that I'm fully
paid up for October and all the previous maintenance payments I was due
to make. Due to their incompetence people like me could end up being
tagged if these mistakes aren't sorted.
Fletcher
2005-11-07 12:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Yeh 1984 becomes a reality with this shit.
Post by tony
Welcome to the police state.
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges
and will not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director
and restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or
electronically-monitored curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think
it's a brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has
got to be good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform
plan is set for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to
give the agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
Fletcher
2005-11-07 12:25:26 UTC
Permalink
See what happens when idiots try running the asylum.

Do they really think this will make any difference?

In many cases the NRP simply doesn't have the money, well if taking his
licence and jailing him doesn't make him suddenly and miraculously able to
find the money what chance has this new pile of piss?

Surprised they haven't suggested cutting of hands, ears or noses or maybe
public floggings or the stocks, fucking dumb idiots.

Any fool can see it's their shitty system thats just wrong, it's been called
a shambles by just about everyone, yet they persist in this utter tripe. Ask
WHY?
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in public
Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be treated
as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers and
address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to avoid
maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He said
last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the system
is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges and will
not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when it
has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are removal
of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director and
restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or electronically-monitored
curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil servants
warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may be
necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the offender".
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are punished
as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by her
former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think it's a
brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has got to be
good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on the
spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest measures
will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform plan is set
for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits. There
are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to give the
agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a million
desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
tony
2005-11-07 12:37:31 UTC
Permalink
As a thought, if a guys only means of feeding himself is self employment is
denied him (restrainght of trade.) then how is this different from what
Zimbabwean tyrant Robert Mugabe does when he bans opponents from even
growing food.

I wondered why our Government officials were happy to shake his hand.
Post by Fletcher
See what happens when idiots try running the asylum.
Do they really think this will make any difference?
In many cases the NRP simply doesn't have the money, well if taking his
licence and jailing him doesn't make him suddenly and miraculously able to
find the money what chance has this new pile of piss?
Surprised they haven't suggested cutting of hands, ears or noses or maybe
public floggings or the stocks, fucking dumb idiots.
Any fool can see it's their shitty system thats just wrong, it's been called
a shambles by just about everyone, yet they persist in this utter tripe. Ask
WHY?
Post by nacsa chair
Radio Five Live is covering this story at 10am
EXCLUSIVE: DODGY DADS TO BE TAGGED
THE PROPOSALS Dads have to give up passports Made to do labouring in
public
Post by nacsa chair
Electronic tagging or curfews Barred from being a director
Exclusive By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor, And Emily Nash
ABSENT dads are warned today they must pay for their children or be
treated
Post by nacsa chair
as "quasi-criminals".
Under tough new plans leaked to the Mirror those who duck out of child
maintenance could be tagged, made to surrender their passports, forced to
labour in public and be barred from running their own firms.
They may also be ordered to give information about their pay, employers
and
Post by nacsa chair
address to the Child Support Agency within weeks of any changes.
The shake-up is aimed at revamping the chaotic CSA whose repeated failures
to collect maintenance have left it more than £1BILLION in arrears.
A senior Whitehall source said: "Reshaping the CSA is meaningless unless
there are proper powers to chase non-payers.
"Removing someone's passport would not only stop them going abroad to
avoid
Post by nacsa chair
maintenance payments but also halt holidays and business travel.
Advertisement
"Forcing non-payers to do unpaid work in the community would bring a real
measure of public shame."
The measures, drawn up by the Department of Work and Pensions, are so
far-ranging some civil servants have warned they are too severe without
safeguards to protect rights.
But Lib Dem MP Steve Webb said even more dramatic moves were needed. He
said
Post by nacsa chair
last night: "We've heard it all before. If the administration of the
system
Post by nacsa chair
is a shambles, this sort of stuff is just fiddling around the edges and
will
Post by nacsa chair
not work.
"You can only patch up a worn tyre so many times. You reach a point when
it
Post by nacsa chair
has to be thrown out and you start again."
Twelve years after the CSA was set up about 70 per cent of absent fathers
are still believed to be refusing to pay child maintenance, leaving single
mums in poverty.
Documents seen by the Mirror state: "Ideas the DWP is exploring are
removal
Post by nacsa chair
of passports, disqualification from becoming a company director and
restrictions on liberty such as unpaid work or electronically-monitored
curfews as alternatives to prison.
"Also mentioned is a proposed new statutory requirement to provide
information to the agency within a specified time."
But in a memorandum to Home Secretary Charles Clarke leading civil
servants
Post by nacsa chair
warn: "We should sound a cautionary note."
They say there should be a "proportionate" balance between the seriousness
of offence and the penalty.
They also add there is a need to recognise that "criminal safeguards may
be
Post by nacsa chair
necessary where sanctions impose quasi-criminal penalties on the
offender".
Post by nacsa chair
This would mean giving parents the right of appeal before they are
punished
Post by nacsa chair
as well as the chance to appear before special courts.
Single mum of two Jackie La Marca, of Leicester - who is owed £17,000 by
her
Post by nacsa chair
former partner after eight years - said of the crackdown: "I think it's a
brilliant idea. Anything which introduces greater punishments has got to
be
Post by nacsa chair
good news.
"But they need something which quickens the system up as well. It takes
months and years for anything to happen."
The radical plans come after growing frustration at the performance of the
CSA which is plagued by low morale fuelled by a faulty computer system.
They were first drawn up by officials working under then Work and Pensions
Secretary David Blunkett who branded the current system a "complete
shambles".
Mr Blunkett, forced to resign last week, first considered giving £100 on
the
Post by nacsa chair
spot fines to fathers who do not pay maintenance.
But the Cabinet believed there was a need to go further. The latest
measures
Post by nacsa chair
will go before new W&P Secretary John Hutton. A detailed reform plan is
set
Post by nacsa chair
for next year.
At the moment the CSA can only deduct payments from wages or benefits.
There
Post by nacsa chair
are no fines, no criminal-type punishments and unlimited time to give the
agency information about pay and employers.
The CSA has been dogged by controversy since it opened in 1993.
In August the Mirror reported that it made £6.8million in interest by
hanging on to cash for single mums. It kept £6.2million, passing on just
£670,000 to needy families since 1997. Last month it was revealed that one
in three phone calls to the CSA goes unanswered, meaning more than a
million
Post by nacsa chair
desperate parents cannot get through to its hotline.
Blunders include claiming support for a five-month-old baby from a virgin.
And Martin Garnett, of Blackpool, Lancs, was dumped by his fiancee after
being pursued by the CSA to fund a child that was not his.
Martin Davies
2005-11-07 13:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
As a thought, if a guys only means of feeding himself is self
employment is denied him (restrainght of trade.) then how is this
different from what Zimbabwean tyrant Robert Mugabe does when he bans
opponents from even growing food.
I wondered why our Government officials were happy to shake his hand.
<snipped>

Eh?
Hadn't heard of someone being denied self employment.

Banning someone from being a director is not banning them from self
employment. Just bans them from having a seperate legal entity to work with
to avoid some liability issues.

Imprisonment however, stops any employed or self employed from working for
that period.

Martin <><
tony
2005-11-07 13:43:09 UTC
Permalink
I see, it's just closing the net (it's still taking liberty away.)
What's to stop a company director disposing of the company and still
working for it.
He might have someone sympathetic to look after the company which would make
this unworkable?

They break your spirit and use there negative reinforcement to try to make
you abjectly subservient to there cause and influence, now they plan to
force community work, what's next? A (NEW) labour camp? Slavery?
Post by tony
Post by tony
As a thought, if a guys only means of feeding himself is self
employment is denied him (restrainght of trade.) then how is this
different from what Zimbabwean tyrant Robert Mugabe does when he bans
opponents from even growing food.
I wondered why our Government officials were happy to shake his hand.
<snipped>
Eh?
Hadn't heard of someone being denied self employment.
Banning someone from being a director is not banning them from self
employment. Just bans them from having a seperate legal entity to work
with to avoid some liability issues.
Imprisonment however, stops any employed or self employed from working for
that period.
Martin <><
Martin Davies
2005-11-07 14:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony
I see, it's just closing the net (it's still taking liberty away.)
What's to stop a company director disposing of the company and still
working for it.
Nothing.
They work for the company anyway.

However, new owners might not have him as a director. And then the rules
regarding directors income wouldn't apply.
Post by tony
He might have someone sympathetic to look after the company which
would make this unworkable?
Any company can refuse to pay DEOs. Though then its a court matter (which
can fine the company).
Simplest way if stopped from being a director is to get a family member to
do it.
Post by tony
They break your spirit and use there negative reinforcement to try to
make you abjectly subservient to there cause and influence, now they
plan to force community work, what's next? A (NEW) labour camp?
Slavery?
Slavery was never outlawed. Just went more up-market and provided some
wages.

Martin <><
Post by tony
Post by tony
Post by tony
As a thought, if a guys only means of feeding himself is self
employment is denied him (restrainght of trade.) then how is this
different from what Zimbabwean tyrant Robert Mugabe does when he
bans opponents from even growing food.
I wondered why our Government officials were happy to shake his hand.
<snipped>
Eh?
Hadn't heard of someone being denied self employment.
Banning someone from being a director is not banning them from self
employment. Just bans them from having a seperate legal entity to
work with to avoid some liability issues.
Imprisonment however, stops any employed or self employed from
working for that period.
Martin <><
--
http://www.cashisallyouneed.co.uk/
tony
2005-11-07 15:17:35 UTC
Permalink
snipped:
Slavery was never outlawed. Just went more up-market and provided some
wages.
Martin <><

That's got to be the best quote of the day LOL.
Post by Martin Davies
Post by tony
I see, it's just closing the net (it's still taking liberty away.)
What's to stop a company director disposing of the company and still
working for it.
Nothing.
They work for the company anyway.
However, new owners might not have him as a director. And then the rules
regarding directors income wouldn't apply.
Post by tony
He might have someone sympathetic to look after the company which
would make this unworkable?
Any company can refuse to pay DEOs. Though then its a court matter (which
can fine the company).
Simplest way if stopped from being a director is to get a family member to
do it.
Post by tony
They break your spirit and use there negative reinforcement to try to
make you abjectly subservient to there cause and influence, now they
plan to force community work, what's next? A (NEW) labour camp?
Slavery?
Slavery was never outlawed. Just went more up-market and provided some
wages.
Martin <><
Post by tony
Post by tony
Post by tony
As a thought, if a guys only means of feeding himself is self
employment is denied him (restrainght of trade.) then how is this
different from what Zimbabwean tyrant Robert Mugabe does when he
bans opponents from even growing food.
I wondered why our Government officials were happy to shake his hand.
<snipped>
Eh?
Hadn't heard of someone being denied self employment.
Banning someone from being a director is not banning them from self
employment. Just bans them from having a seperate legal entity to
work with to avoid some liability issues.
Imprisonment however, stops any employed or self employed from
working for that period.
Martin <><
--
http://www.cashisallyouneed.co.uk/
Martin Davies
2005-11-07 12:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fletcher
See what happens when idiots try running the asylum.
Do they really think this will make any difference?
In many cases the NRP simply doesn't have the money, well if taking
his licence and jailing him doesn't make him suddenly and
miraculously able to find the money what chance has this new pile of
piss?
Surprised they haven't suggested cutting of hands, ears or noses or
maybe public floggings or the stocks, fucking dumb idiots.
Any fool can see it's their shitty system thats just wrong, it's been
called a shambles by just about everyone, yet they persist in this
utter tripe. Ask WHY?
<snipped>
Tagging has one advantage. Its prison without the prison expense and without
the loss of job or income.
Stopping someone becoming a director is a bit of an odd idea. Like removal
of driving licence, it won't actually stop everyone but is just one more
offence if later caught out.

And of course, none of the ideas they have come up with actually get the
person to pay money any faster than they did before if they are set on not
paying.

Oh, and just to chuck another bit of crap into the pot - what about those
who owe arrears but who are now PWC as the kids have come to live with them?
I've met a few NRPs who are owed as PWCs by the person who is now the PWC.
Some around £10K of arrears.
Would any of these new measures be appropriate for a PWC?

Martin <><
tony
2005-11-07 13:01:15 UTC
Permalink
snip
Oh, and just to chuck another bit of crap into the pot - what about those
who owe arrears but who are now PWC as the kids have come to live with them?
I've met a few NRPs who are owed as PWCs by the person who is now the PWC.
Some around £10K of arrears.
Would any of these new measures be appropriate for a PWC?

Martin <><

So if you get the kids back, & owe £10,000 from when you worked they'll
kindly allow you the first £10 per week (for the period) if your later on
benifit, and pocket the rest of the arreas?
Martin Davies
2005-11-07 13:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Davies
snip
Oh, and just to chuck another bit of crap into the pot - what about
those who owe arrears but who are now PWC as the kids have come to
live with them? I've met a few NRPs who are owed as PWCs by the
person who is now the PWC. Some around £10K of arrears.
Would any of these new measures be appropriate for a PWC?
Martin <><
So if you get the kids back, & owe £10,000 from when you worked
they'll kindly allow you the first £10 per week (for the period) if
your later on benifit, and pocket the rest of the arreas?
At the moment, they don't seem to know much about what to do when the role
reversal comes in while arrears owed.
Not sure myself what the best way forwards would be - arrears are owed
because of payment that should have been made (though can be years before
NRP told about them). Yet I doubt many would argue that kids living with you
currently cost money to raise, and arrears fall second place to that.
Though is it any better to offer to pay for the next 35+ years at so much a
week?

Martin <><
--
http://www.cashisallyouneed.co.uk/
nacsa chair
2005-11-07 19:29:34 UTC
Permalink
The Wright Show is also covering this tomorrow between 9.30 and 10am and are
looking for people to call in - so another opportunity to put yoru points
across.
NACSA CHAIR
Post by Martin Davies
Post by Martin Davies
snip
Oh, and just to chuck another bit of crap into the pot - what about
those who owe arrears but who are now PWC as the kids have come to
live with them? I've met a few NRPs who are owed as PWCs by the
person who is now the PWC. Some around £10K of arrears.
Would any of these new measures be appropriate for a PWC?
Martin <><
So if you get the kids back, & owe £10,000 from when you worked
they'll kindly allow you the first £10 per week (for the period) if
your later on benifit, and pocket the rest of the arreas?
At the moment, they don't seem to know much about what to do when the role
reversal comes in while arrears owed.
Not sure myself what the best way forwards would be - arrears are owed
because of payment that should have been made (though can be years before
NRP told about them). Yet I doubt many would argue that kids living with
you currently cost money to raise, and arrears fall second place to that.
Though is it any better to offer to pay for the next 35+ years at so much
a week?
Martin <><
--
http://www.cashisallyouneed.co.uk/
nacsa chair
2005-11-07 19:37:51 UTC
Permalink
sorry - that should be The Wright Show on channel 5

NACSA CHAIR
Post by nacsa chair
The Wright Show is also covering this tomorrow between 9.30 and 10am and
are looking for people to call in - so another opportunity to put yoru
points across.
NACSA CHAIR
Post by Martin Davies
Post by Martin Davies
snip
Oh, and just to chuck another bit of crap into the pot - what about
those who owe arrears but who are now PWC as the kids have come to
live with them? I've met a few NRPs who are owed as PWCs by the
person who is now the PWC. Some around £10K of arrears.
Would any of these new measures be appropriate for a PWC?
Martin <><
So if you get the kids back, & owe £10,000 from when you worked
they'll kindly allow you the first £10 per week (for the period) if
your later on benifit, and pocket the rest of the arreas?
At the moment, they don't seem to know much about what to do when the
role reversal comes in while arrears owed.
Not sure myself what the best way forwards would be - arrears are owed
because of payment that should have been made (though can be years before
NRP told about them). Yet I doubt many would argue that kids living with
you currently cost money to raise, and arrears fall second place to that.
Though is it any better to offer to pay for the next 35+ years at so much
a week?
Martin <><
--
http://www.cashisallyouneed.co.uk/
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